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How to Build Wealth & Influence with Sir John Key

Jul 31, 2021

I had the pleasure of welcoming New Zealand's former Prime Minister, Sir John Key, to the Leaders' Mastermind™ in Queenstown. We had a ton of fun with my mastermind members up in the sky, out on the water and we also found time for a great conversation with Sir John.

Take a moment to sit down and take in some of the golden nuggets that John imparted. He shared some great insights around wealth, influence and leadership.

If you are passionate about being the best leader you can be, you will want to check out this interview. If you're more of a podcast fan - head over to the Life on Purpose podcast for the full episode.

Twenty lucky people get to secure a seat at the Leaders' Mastermind each year - apply now to see if you are eligible to join this exclusive program.

Full Transcript

The following is the full transcript of this weeks episode of the Life On Purpose Podcast with James Laughlin. For weekly motivation please subscribe to the Apple Podcast, Spotify or YouTube Channel.



Sir John Key, former Prime Minister of New Zealand

James Laughlin, Life Coach and Leadership Coach, Christchurch, New Zealand


James Laughlin 00:01 

Welcome to Life on Purpose. My name is James Laughlin, former seven-time world champion musician and now a success coach to leaders and high performers. Each week, I bring you an inspiring leader or expert to help you live your life on purpose. Thanks for taking the time to connect today and investing in yourself. Enjoy the show!    


You are in for a real treat. So put your feet up and enjoy this intimate interview I had with Sir John Key. Former prime minister of New Zealand. This interview was conducted in a live setting in Queenstown, New Zealand. John was a special guest of mine this year at my leader’s mastermind event. If you'd like to learn a little bit more about how to join a leader’s mastermind, please head over to my website www.jjlaughlin.com/mastermind. Members of this year's mastermind included CEOs of software companies, property investors, financiers, startups, and we even had current professional rugby player Sam Whitelock. So, head over and check it out. But for now, enjoy the show.  


So, I’d like to welcome you down to Queenstown. This is the leader’s mastermind 2021. And we've got leaders from all different backgrounds all around New Zealand. And today is all about listening to you around what you did as one of the country's greatest leaders. So, John, I'd love to ask you. What is your definition of leadership? 


Sir John Key 02:00 

Ultimately, it's achieving the outcomes and the vision that you have for whatever you're doing, because leadership could be of a scout pack, or it could be of the country or it could be of a business organization or a sporting team or, you know, there are many different forms and organizations anything can take. Including just yourself leadership of your own life. So, I think it's ultimately about what am I trying to achieve? And how can I make that possible? And more often than not, that just does involve a lot more than one person. And so, it's a, I think it's a plan for putting together how you're going to motivate people to achieve the outcomes you want, and the results you want. 





James Laughlin 02:37 

And in your time as leader, obviously as PM, but then working out on a lot of boards. Yeah, you get to rub shoulders with some amazing leaders. Yeah. What would you say are some of the core principles, key principles of leadership? 


Sir John Key 02:49 

Yeah, I mean, I think the first thing is they all sort of say that, like, yeah, we take a ship out from how we got to know where you're going. So, I think the first point is, how would you define success? And can you write down what the definition of success is? Because a lot of companies when you go in there, and you say, okay, tell me what, tell me what success is, right? They can't actually write down if you ask 20 people in the organization, they have a very different definition of that. And if they don't know where they're going, they know what that really looks like, how will they even know if they've actually got there? And how will you know what the, you know, strategy is. Our son, he's 26. And so, he's got degrees in property in finance. I mean, he was going to actually go down to Los Angeles, he had a job in finance in Los Angeles. And I said to him, what do you want to do? And he said, he, I want to, I really want to be a property developer, you know, I want to I want to live in Auckland, I think I'll have the next my life, you know, 50 years, I think. And I think conceptually, I can do really well in that. 



And so, I said, okay, well, if you come back, you have to go away and think about what that looks like. And then if you want to, we'll back you, you know, enough resources to make that happen. So anyway, so he came back, and he spent months he came back and said, here's the model of what I want to do and how it's going to work and its actually doing really well. Tried to make a, you know, little company. And so that's going to be MTK capital, because mixed some cases so good. And I said, and what's the vision statement for the company just looked at me, oh, Jesus, you've been too long on the boardroom. And I said, No, what's the vision statement? He goes on a while and go when you get one out, think about whether we're going to give you some money. Anyway but that dirty lady came back and then we sort of panel, we did this thing. And I said, turn the vision statement. Well, in the in the vision set we broadly agreed on was we're going to buy and develop houses that we would like to own and other people want to own. And you sort of certainly the guy can well, it's pretty simple. And I go yeah, there's but we've looked at about three or four sites in the last six months and I see Tom doesn't make the vision statement. Do we like do we Really want to own it? Like, do we really any guys here, you can make money. I said, mate, we can make money out today. But by the way, everything we do is time delayed. So, like and, you know, a year and a half that's going to come out of the ground and be finished or whatever. And so are you really sure. And we've turned down things that we thought, you know, because they just didn't fit what we wanted. And so, I think, and for companies, it's easy to sit there and say, well, it's all about profit. But is it really, I mean, you know, it's also in the modern world, we live in about the reputation of the organization, and whether that fits with, you know, a whole bunch of things? Do you even have a climate policy? Or, you know, I might even agree with some of the things, but ultimately, you do have to have a broader view. So, I think, firstly, it's about we're going, right, the second thing of leadership is really clarity really, of, of not only where you're going, but I think some sort of consistency about the messaging you have, I think it doesn't matter if you're with people that are necessarily volatile. If that always volatile, but if, if you're the sort of person, like I'm really quite calm, like, takes awful, you just never wants to be around me, if I'm not in the right mood, because that happens so infrequently, it just won't really happen. Generally, stuff wash offs me. But if you can't be like that, and then have every third Thursday, we're having a meltdown. Because, you know, through half, we will work around that, which sort of leads you to the next bit, which is ultimately as the team you know, and I think I was really lucky as prime minister, and you're sure you make your own luck, but, but the luck was also created, because we had Bill and Stephen and Paul or him, you know, just a million other people waiting or some our chief staff, you must be wouldn't know. It's what comes through when you read Obama's book, you know, it's  yeah, sure, he's, you know, the greatest orator, you know, probably the world's produced in a very long time. And you had a vision for what he wanted a modern America to look like. But actually, underneath it all, he had this cadre of people that were there. And the second of his team, like I had been obviously for, you know, really tediously that the party they never left, you know. And so, I think that's a lot of what is the I think just the last thing is, you constantly have to be evolving and creating yourself, it doesn't mean that you always have to throw everything out, it always has to change. But we live in a world that is constantly changing,. And do you really think banking services is going to look like it looks today? It's not. I mean, the reason we closed branches is no one goes there. Not because we're trying to be annoying is because, you know, it's not just people in this audience. But everybody gets up in the morning and says, I want to get out a bloody branch and work out what my bank balance is or actually see my bank manager, if I want to buy a house or anything else, if everything they want to do is digital. So, you're just to give an example, at ANZ on people go on to the ANZ go money, they digital it twice a day, on average size three times. We go on to the internet, the laptop twice a week, they go on to a branch once a year, let's usually get for an exchange or cash check. And now we're getting rid of checks and we're not doing much of burning shade. So, you're never going to come and see us. That kind of thing. Yeah. 



James Laughlin 08:16 

Yeah, I love that. And in terms of visionary. So, I think all great leaders are great visionaries. And when we look back to when you were a child, you had a vision of around eight or nine years old or maybe younger to make a million dollars, Mum. And I'm going to be prime minister. Yeah. Where did that vision come about? What inspired you? 


Sir John Key 08:34 

Well, I think firstly, mums are really interesting woman she so I kind of have some way to speak to very unusual backgrounds. A mum was an Austrian Jewish refugee. So, she was born in Austria in 1922. Jewish family, her father died when she was about 15. And when she was, I remember 16, the Nazis were invading Austria. And the way the world worked then was that the way it works today is if you want to come to Ireland, like come to New Zealand, like and you're Irish or good, and say you had a brother and though the only two kids, right? And your brother was here in New Zealand, and you want to bring your parents out, for instance, that would be allowed on the New Zealand rules. And the reason is this family reunification, and the nucleus of the family would be deemed to be in New Zealand because both of the siblings are in New Zealand, right? So that's not how it worked in 1938 and UK which was it was about whether you were married, if you're married, you could sponsor someone and so mum had not called Lottie and Lottie literally paid a British soldier to marry her so that she could sponsor mum and her brother, and the rest of the family wouldn't come. In all mum’s wider family with the exception of your mother went to the concentration camps a little bit, only two to get out. And then your mum and dad might come out to New Zealand. That was a very long-time story. About when there was when I was about five or six, dad just hit this mess of heartache and drop down dead, so I don't know him at all. So, I was really raised by and I have no memory at all of dad. And I think it was really through Mum, who, who sort of, she was a combination of lots of different things, but very determined woman. So she would just say, Look, your life is going to change in all sorts of ways that you don't know. I never thought I'd go to England, I couldn't speak a word of English I was so I'd be well off, the family was well off when they're in Austria couldn't get the money out, obviously, in you know, I never thought I'd be raising three kids without a husband. But you know, and guess what then happened, all these different things. And so, he's associate, you got to focus on the things that they can never take away from you, which is sort of education is one of those most things. But she said also, in the end, you know, you get out of life, what you put into it. And if you really put enough into it, you'll make your own life, you know, you won't want to not everything will work out, you won't succeed at everything. But you'll never succeed if you don't give it a go. And you'll never succeed if you don't give it 100%. And so, I kind of thought, well, in the end, you don't want money just for the sake of money. But money is all about what it can bring for you. Mum was you save me money, you know, won't bring happiness, and I was just got short sale helps. So, and it does, the reality is that if you've got financial independence, you don't feel constrained. And you don't feel frightened in the way that so many people do when they can't pay the bills. So that was important. But I mean, obviously I was just always politically interested and I think you know, what motivates you when you're nine versus when you're 40, which is your reign is different. But I just always thought in my kind of adult years. New Zealand was an incredible country that underperformed, and I think I just sort of thought I could make a difference. I think you have to have, truthfully, every politician has an A type personality and his ego. And if they don't, they probably shouldn't be there. Because you really need that to bounce and deflect all the negative stuff that comes at you Really?  


James Laughlin 11:57 

Absolutely. And so, you went away to North America for quite a bit. 


Sir John Key 12:00 

Yeah. Well, I went to- what happened was I initially where I came out, I chose an accountant. So, I did accounting and economics. And then I started in the financial markets when they deregulated in 1987, basically, and sort of spent eight years in New Zealand running bank distrust really in the end. And the I just decided, like I really at Grand New Zealand. So, I went to London. Went to Singapore, he ran the Asian foreign exchange for Merrill Lynch, who sort of huge but useless and product change, but it's a huge, I got it for about three months. And I had an Australian boss goes crazy, actually, really nice guy he's mad. And it comes down. He turns out he had sec, the guy who ran global foreign exchange. So, this guy ran a number of businesses, and he came down he had done with me, and he said, I've got rid of samsara. He's out to the job. And I said, I'm not surprised. He goes, why go because this operation sucks. It's so bad. I'm thinking about going back to Auckland  He goes, if you're so clear, I'll send you to London to run global foreign exchange. And I went, okay, because if you don't make it in 12 months, I'll sec you. I said, alright sunshine for that making the living months I'll quit, get out in front of you. And we went the in that business was making about $200 million a year, which for me was not a lot of money. It sounds like a lot. There wasn't a lot turn around us. In the first year I ran it, we made a billion and we never made under a billion after that. So, but we checked completely changed the business. So, we went in the and said, okay, we're doing this, and we should be doing this. And we got to evolve to this and this. And so, we built amazing, again, amazing group of people that came and work for us who wanted to have Merrill Lynch on the CV like Goldman Sachs, or Morgan Stanley, 



James Laughlin 13:40 

And you were relatively young when you went and did that. So how did you know to pivot? How did you know like, hey, I want to take it this way? I'm seeing what's going on there. It's not really working for us go from doing a million to billion substantial in a very short time. Yeah. So how did you know what to do? Or was a hit in this challenge?? 


Sir John Key 13:54 

No, well, it wasn't really hitting it was a bit technical without getting into the boring details. But the fundamentals of the investment banks in those days were they were price takers. So, they were if they had a big client, because we ultimately had mess of hedge fund clients who we supported, if they came in like George Soros, or Tiger or whatever, and came and said, I want to buy $500 million against the yen. And we would bring up Citibank and Sega surprise, and that doesn't make sense because those clients know you're doing it. And so why don't they just go straight to Citibank? That's the argument. Now, they don't always get the credit and things. So, there are some reasons why they come to you. But we got a fraction of the business. So, we used to look around and we were the number one on every product category. Like we were the biggest hedge fund manager, we're the biggest equity player. And so, we were like number 25, and foreign exchange. And so, odds are something go or does make sense. We had the best relationship in the world with all these people from Boeing to George Soros, but we don't get the business and the reason why they get the business they don't think we're any good. So, to do that, we have to have liquidity. So, I went to London where I went first went to London, the first month I was there, I thought, well, we got to change. We got to make ourselves look like Deutsche Bank or Citibank and We got to do that. And so, I went out for lunch with the guy called Lloyd Blankfein who ran Goldman Sachs. Lloyd. You know, some people think I've done all right. She's Lloyds. Really, if the definition is making billions, Lynne Woods done very well. So, he was the managing partner of Goldman ratio right through the GFC. And everything else is amazing guy, Lloyd Blankfein, and I had lunch with them. And I said, we're going to go into bank, and you should come with us when he says, I'm not coming with you. And I said, Well, why not? He said, because we don't need to, I said, of course, you need to. Work out what's happening, you guys taking all this risk, you can't give out other things, you know, captured by these people, we're going to kill them. And you know, we're going to take these guys apart, we are the customers. And when we're not there, we're going to dominate. And he's such a scaredy cat, for God's sake. Anyway, we're done for about a month. And the Vinci said, okay, if you go, I’ll go. And Morgan Stanley came with us. And within about two years, we were dominating the world rankings. And it was pretty legit. And so, we went being numbered from 25 to I think, number 4 in the world, and ethics. Just huge volume. So, it was a bit like, you know, we could work out what to do. I mean, I'd love to tell you, we were rocket science, but it was a bit like when I became prime minister, I mean, I came payment, oh, wait, it was pretty bloody obvious that China was going to be the biggest economy in the world, you'd have to be very smart, say, if we have a good economic relationship with them, we can underpin a lot of jobs and make a lot of money. So, I win eight times when I was Prime Minister, and we had a great relationship with them. And in, you know, it was part of what got us through the GFC. 



James Laughlin 16:36 

Amazing. I've always looked at you as someone who takes a commonsense approach. You know, there's no BS, there's no funny games, you always take a commonsense approach, whether you're being interviewed by someone who's asked the awkward question. Yeah, you come right back at them. Yeah. So, relationships, and building relationships, and rapport, obviously been a key part of your success. So, do you have any tips for anybody out there anybody in the audience here on how to build genuine, authentic relationships? 


Sir John Key 17:00 

Well, I think the first thing is that it's like a marriage, you know, you have to work on it, you know, it's lovely to assume that it's all going to be perfect, and it's all going to work out all the time. But like any, like any relationship, it goes through varying different stages of development. I think it's true when you work with people. So, people will ultimately have to feel like part of the team and they have to feel valued. And I think often companies forget to do the little things. Actually, builders are pretty well, they have a roof shot, and they buy lots of beers on Friday afternoon, and they have a barbecue. And, you know, they do quite a good job actually. I think not all of them, but obviously some of them do. And I think companies often lose sight of that, you know, and I think one thing is just having a sense of, in fact, I was assigned to Carolyn, and she picked me up at the airport that this is not something I've said to Max, but he's obviously been around me so much, because when you're in the political world, you live like this. But he has a bunch of different gangs of builders that work for him. And he's got about five or six sites are on the garden. And he wanted to show you me one of the was working on something, so I say it's going so we went out and it was all good. So, we wander in a and must have been about eight or nine guys on site. And he went over every one of them. And I've never talked to this he's went over, and he went hi Billy. Hi Judas. This whole thing having the two of them the guys I didn't know he introduced me to them. He said, was it over here? What's happening here? What was problem here?And when we left, he went round sit all on you have a nice weekend. You're good. So, it's just little things that sometimes we sort of forget. And yeah, like there's a quite a quite a, I think it's true, but years ago and if you look at management sort of studies that we saw, if someone comes into resigned to you, and you talk them out of leaving, I think something like three quarters of them leave within 12 months, even when they say yes and stay because there's a real if you get to the point where you want to resign there's something going on that's means you're not sure. And in you often get talked out of it. But then you actually realize in the when you wake up a few days later, I think it's bit like being in a relationship that's not working and the. So I think that's one really important thing. I think in the end also. I was reckoning you've just got to get the best people answered compromise. And I was trusting my instincts, I will say mate, trust your instincts. What he wants the only advice I get Bill English when I retired and he became prime minister, I said, What do you think, trust your instincts in the people in my life I've met where I've just thought I don't trust that. And I can't tell you what's wrong. And maybe I'll get it wrong. Sometimes I miss an opportunity, but I'd rather miss an opportunity that I think . This is the problem. As soon as you go against your instincts, and something goes wrong, you start second guessing so and you never really believe in those. And if you look at like, you know, you've got Sam Whitelock and Richie McCaw. And those guys, most of what they did actually was training the All Blacks to get themselves in position of what it would feel like if they were leading by one point or down by one point World Cup final, which, by the way, as we're hitting 2000 Olympics, and he said to me, after that game, I kind of enjoyed it. And I said, seriously? You guys, kind of just a trend for so long to get myself in that mental space. But when I was there, I kind of liked it. And I think it's a bit like people that it's a funny thing, when you're in when you're in a highly pressured environment, I think it'd be like that for a lot of sports people. Part of is that sheer fear of running out now gone, the webs of all goes wrong. But then you feed off that and you love it, you know? So, I think you've got to, you've really got, whatever you do, you have to have the best people that you back. And hopefully, they'll work out. And if they don't, you got to change it. 



James Laughlin 21:10 

I love that. And so, when you go into back into the Prime Minister mode, and you're dealing with some major crisis, because I think back to what you were dealing with, you walked into a GFC. And then the Christchurch earthquake. Yeah. So, when you're managing crisis, which are all the guys that are in the audience here are managing crisis, weekly, with different business things and personal things, what's your approach to managing crisis? So, when emotions are high, and you're feeling at heart rates rising, the pressures on you got to make a decision, you have a process you go through to make that decision? 


Sir John Key 21:41 

I don't have a process. But I have I have a way I know that I deal with it. I mean, it's not as probably almost as sophisticated as saying, it'll be this and this and assume it's just happens. But well, one of the things is I do think, actually, on balance, if you can be calm, that's really important, because I just wonder, you know, how good a decision you really going to make if you're yelling and screaming, you know, there are a few sports stars that sort of john McEnroe's of the world where it's been part of the persona and that's kind of worked. But as a general rule, I would say, you kind of need to be calm to make the right decisions. I think the second thing you have to realize is worry about things you can control. So I never worry about stuff I can't control. I just go well; I can't control it. So, I've been you know, even might even be like that's not my issue. I just worry about the things that are within, you know, in the end, I think the next thing is one of the things that really made out so like a Tyrian political sense is not as much in a crisis. But in a political sense. This is what matters, the economy lowers normally health education, they're the only things people vote on. I don't care how much you tell me. It's Yep, there was some single-issue vices that worry about gay rights or, or climate change, or something very few of them. Largely, they're worried about to have a job. Is grandma going to be okay, when she goes to hospital? Will I be safe? If I walk down the street at night? You know, will my kids get decent education? That things people worry about. In so companies, I find spin and I'm involved in one company in the moment, which and I was really giving the CEO hell the other day, because I said you mate are spending way too much on the ship that doesn't matter. And waited a little time on the stuff that does matter. I'll tell you what does matter. I'll tell you stuff to stop doing. But if you don't do it, I'm going to change you. Because you use you've got no focus. And so, I think you've got to have that kind of determination. So, what is it stuff that really, really matters? And the other last thing I just said, you really need to be flexible and dexterous. And, you know, you because one thing happens in a crisis, when you're certain when your prime minister is you, you would think they have perfect information, and they don't like I see just under getting up halftones COVID-19 stuff. And sometimes you can ask the question that people young are given, but I can't think Yeah, well, I kind of know why she can't because she was dead and don’t know the answer. Like they just don't know. They don't know what's happening and inaction and modern world where the media every week, you know, the ubiquitous and they have everyone has a mobile phone, and they're all filming things in Iowa, you know, it's happening faster than the officials can cope with. But I think what happens is, I think in the end, you have to make a decision, and you have to back that decision, whatever that is. And I reckon you back it to you're not backing it. And if you have to change your change, but if the decision is I'm doing XYZ I mean, we went into Christchurch, and we could read it, we realized very quickly locked to a tens of thousands businesses that couldn't get into town. We you know, we couldn't get into their offices. There were 60,000 people that are employed by them. There's no way they're going to pay the wages. And if they're under 20 employees, at least they didn't have business continuity insurance. So, we just set the machine Jerry Bradley bill and me and Steven Joyce and we said okay, we're just going to pay everybody for 12 weeks, and we're going to pay them this amount of money and the officials just Treasury's just looked at us and said, You've got to be joking. We got to go through this process. And that process is what you got to be joking. This is the way we're doing it. If we hadn't done that those businesses would, in my entire time as prime minister posts being posted with quite a pretty much winter crosshatch every week, in every week, we'll demonstrate someone would come up to me and say they still don't know I got a question to go, you saved my business. And there was the basis of what you're sending us for COVID-19 response. And, yeah, when there's nothing miraculous in the way that what we just knew that we needed to do emphasize the speed at which we did, but if it wasn't working, we would have changed it. But I think you have to really, I think better just have to, like I say trust your instincts back decision, what's really important, what isn't important. I remember at one point, there was all these rounds about armor, some stupid stuff about whether enough toilets between different portable towards in different places. Now, as we were saying the bogies written, it's a big stuff with your IQ. And that's that, you know, 187 people died. And by the way, with all these other things going on, and when people are actually about to get back into their offices, and so you're just taking about a couple with this stuff. And john Campbell, and he'll get over it. 



Yeah, move on  


James Laughlin 26:17 

I hope you're enjoying the conversation with Sir John so far. There's so much more to come. But I wanted to hop in for a brief moment to let you know about the purpose club. Not everybody can afford one to one coaching, or the leaders mastermind. So, I put together the purpose club. So, for less than $1 a day, you can get six figure coaching, life coaching, business coaching, I go live every month and share my best strategies. I also send you weekly reminders planning emails, templates, frameworks, it's an amazing membership. So, if you'd like to know a little bit more about it, please head over to my website www.jjlaughlin.com/thepurposeclub. I look forward to seeing you there guys and enjoy the rest of the show. 


And so essentially, when you talk about the CEO that you give a bit of flak, you know, the focus narrowed and focus on what matters. So that board role essentially is a little bit like a coaching role or a mentorship role. 


Sir John Key 27:11 

Yeah, I think it's an interesting thing being on the board. I think at one level you I mean, you're not there to be at war with the CEO. But equally on the other side of the coin, you are there to provide a bit of contestable opinion. And you are the probably provided a little bit of wisdom, I think, really, I mean, it's really the argument, I think. So, you want them to better bounce stuff off you. But equally, you do want to say, hey, you know, is it really, right? And I mean, I can just give you the banking of those different CEOs. So don't take the wrong because the CEO but it in ANZ THE CEO is great in terms of what's my point is she's been tested by ASB about two or three weeks ago came out with this product. And so, one, believing that it's a floating exchange rate, this doesn't float. So, it's a 1.79% exchange rate. If you do a new build development, it's for three years as he flows red bubbles now that’s that. And I said to Tony the other day, what do you reckon about that? She was really clever. And she said, Well, he was really clever, and we hadn't really thought about it. And I said, well, we should have like someone in the launcher should have. Yeah, it doesn't really matter. But like get my when we’re the biggest. But if you want to stay the biggest, this is our problem. We're the biggest every product category will one on three headlines one and two New Zealanders have a relationship with us. And the problem is, it's easy to get all those big numbers and stats and our balance sheets 140 billion, blah, blah, blah. And you get diluted by all that stuff. And you see the boiling frog syndrome, you wake up one day and you go Geez, with my market go? And the answer is some FinTech took it off me. And so, we have to be dexterous and clever. And if we're not coming up with that really clever idea, we have to be intellectually honest with ourselves to ask ourselves why not? Now we do lots of clever phones. I'm just signed in separately to be ridiculous, you haven't selves. And it's not like we're going to lock up on every bright idea. But I really try and catch a guy's that you just got to constantly be; we've got to be the internal competitor. We got to constantly ask ourselves, what were those people going to do? Because if you go on off site for ASB, BNZ, and Qbank. What do you reckon they write on the board? I’ll tell you what they write on the board, ANZ because we have the biggest market share in every category. So why would you go after us because you shoot with the doctor. 


James Laughlin 29:43 

shoot with the ducks at. I love that. It's interesting. So, you do a lot of work in Palo Alto and Silicon Valley and see how they operate as companies. Often their biggest challenge is execution of what they're currently doing. Yeah. And innovation of what they need to be doing. Yeah. So do you see anything that they do in their companies that you can bring back in New Zealand companies. But hey guys, we can execute what we need to do. But here's how we innovate and balance that. 




Sir John Key 30:07 

Yeah, so one thing, one thing in Silicon Valley is you just assume every. Every everyone succeeds in everything. It's Facebook, and Google and WhatsApp. And this is a guy actually on, I'm on Palo Alto Networks board, we're suing the largest cyber security company in the world. And there's a guy on that board called Jim Gates and Jim, as he is to, you know, basically, VC money in Silicon Valley. What, you know, the dollars to Tina Swallow, you know, Maradona has to football, you know, he is as good as it gets. So, he was the managing partner at Sequoia in and he just saw a really retire and really be 53 has nothing to heat up WhatsApp, Facebook, zoom, Google. He did everything. He's done everything like he's got to be with so many billions, like many, many, many billions. And when you talk to it guys here, okay, but we have a portfolio, and I can name hundreds have gone wrong. But yeah, he's got these, he's got a lot of big calls, right? So, part of it is he just looks for these people. He really backs people in often with an idea that he can kind of see is going to there so soon be the first to video messaging was, I mean, Skype was actually Google wasn't the first search engine. So, everybody thinks to have the greatest product, they've got to run the mouse trap, triple creator, kind of new master, but he they just need to do something better than what's currently being. In fact, actually, because there's real demand in the space. So, it's really hard to think outside, like in Silicon Valley, you will get someone who's brilliant will come along, say I'm going to envy what, so they think they call it container, which is essentially, you know, in the cloud, and that's a virtual visual storage facility. So, yeah get some brilliant people who think up that concept, but a lot of others just, you know, it's just them coming up and saying, here's, here's what I do. Great. My question is, how am I going to do it better than the other guys? And in fact, there's a guy would do some work for who believes his makes green concrete. Okay, so he's worked out how to make concrete half the energy output of anything else. Look, he's really amazing guy. This is brilliant Canadians, young, really young guy. But into understandable. This is this is Ryan, like, PhDs out the wazoo. And he said, he went away when we came and looked at zoom and Skype and about 10 of these video messaging things, and said, Yeah, worked out that they were obviously the best technology with the best listeners and says, you should buy any promo system by the stop. So yeah, there's I think that's a bit of what they do. They it's just a different model there. Because one thing is they like at Palo Alto, we make, you know, I don't know, about seven or 8 billion US a year. A newer $36 billion company, but yeah, I suspect we're going to be a lot more images. telemarketers going crazy as people ultimately move off to the cloud. And I see to the CEO when they when you reckon, we'll pay a dividend. And he's looked at me like I was a Martian. See, well, Google don't pay one. So, a lot of it came from Google. He was the number four guy at Google so that the world has very different ways. If you look at ANZ, we our traditional defensive banking stock where dividends taught people, but people don't bias for growth really, quite arguably they do that, for example. 



James Laughlin 33:56 

That's excellent. Now, so going back to everything that you've done, so the banking, all the travel, being a dad being a partner in a prime minister. It's a lot to take on as a human and a lot to compartmentalize. So, is there anything you've done when the stakes were high? It'll like you're juggling a lot to just balance your wellbeing balanced your mindset to make sure you just show up be a great dad show up be an amazing Prime Minister, any habit stick? 



Sir John Key 34:24 

Yeah, I think the first thing is you got to have every human being needs a little bit of me time. So largely when I was Prime Minister, I sort of get up at 5:30 in the great thing when you live with police, you know 24/7is that they're all young and fit. So, you know, here we run down to the gym, we do boxing. Well, what that really means is that hold up periods and I could hit them on occasion I did just assume that they're awake. And in sort of run back and we just might do 40 minutes. There's nothing great. But in that was really weird golf came along, you know, obviously I couldn't go and play all time because it's not great when you're Prime Minister but I'd get the range for 40 minutes, so I do something and so patently fishy, I think everybody needs a little bit of that just something to clear the mind and to feel like you're just doing something because you do so much in the nicest possible. I mean, this uses so much everything's about stuff that everybody else, you know, and that can be the family, it can be constituents, it can be whatever, you just got to do a little bit of something, we say, this is kind of what I do. And it is one lien fly the helicopter at the moment, I'm not really doing it, because I'm going to fly myself full time, although I probably will fly quite a bit, but I'll probably take a safety pilot with me most of the time. But I just like the mental concept of like, you feel wrecked after an hour. Like you're really you know, it's just the challenge, I think of just doing something that's about unless I'm just interested. And I'm like, I think the second thing is that whatever you're doing, you got to you got to do that and, you know, the single biggest thing like you have kids, you know, pick up your phone, if you haven't done with the kids get rid of your mobile phone. So, I think you really do have to say look is so much better to put your phone down and concentrate on what you're doing have quality time and then kind of pretend that you are listening when you're really not. And you're playing on your phone and you're looking at some email and you focus on something else now. Yeah, like the reality is that you can have a lot going on, and you can't completely switch your mind off reality, as you'll always think about other things that going on. But I think, you know, especially when it comes to kids, but they're also partners, you know, it's massively important that you give them, give them the, you know, their time and their attention. And if you're looking at in a political sense, I got to meet and have lunch a couple times with Bill Clinton and yeah, what else are the cool things to me? Oh, it's the stuff of the belts, books in America, which very few people don't. And they will say about Clinton, he's one of these guys that you feel like you're the only person in the room and you're there. But it's I hate to buy into the sort of cliches because it feels like you're just parroting. But it really is true. It's unbelievable. Like he just his capacity to I don't know just to make you feel as though he's solely focused on what you're saying and what you're doing. And he's quite a brilliant guy. He's got a few issues. But yeah, but I like I'm about I went to this Clinton Global Initiative thing at one point, as PM when we just announced that we were to accumulate into a nation sanctuary. And he was always quite keen on accumulating it. So, to be fair, he knew a bit about it. But we were slightly late, because we met this thing. And it was like, hundreds of times and he had met Damon was on stage with him. And he had always wanted to be when he was doing a bit of an intro. And we came in and they had these seats near the front for us. And I just wanted to go and listen to him. So, I told my guys just covered some time again, you know, see Bill speak. So then as we're walking in with our eyes, and Jim says, you know, John Key's coming in the audience, Prime Minister of New Zealand, and he just gave this five minute dissertation about the Kermadecs and about their importance in the world and the things that New Zealand were doing and about me and it was like, you know, it was if you given them if you'd hit days of warning and things and lots of briefing notes, you could say, Okay, I get it. But this guy hadn't in me. And he was just curious. He was curious about people. And so, you know, it's a challenge, I think, to not dominate not as dominate the conversation, but be engaged in the conversation. And so, it's a happy medium somewhere along the line. Absolutely. Not one that we was we impulsive towards get right. But I think there's a bit of that stuff. Because I think one of the things is Yeah, it was said to people, you know, I came into politics, you know, is stiff, he mixes dead in his bones husband, and I tend to leave like that. And I did. And I think if you go to Parliament with a bad marriage, it'll never last together with a good marriage. It will. But anything, it doesn't matter whether it's parliament, or whether you're running a business, we're doing sales, there just pressures in there. And just because it doesn't work, doesn't mean you're failing. I mean, the simple facts, a lot of divorce rate runs around almost most countries in the Western world at 40 or 50%, as well as, but I do think that, you know, if you really want to make it work, you really do have to say, what am I prepared to pull into that? Because it won't just be enough that you've got money, because there's been a lot of very high profile, people who've got divorced recently who have hundreds of billions of dollars and he hasn't saved them either. So, it's not just about money. It's much more than that. I think, and we with your kids, I mean, ultimately, I don't know we've been pretty, like we have a great relationship with their kids. It doesn't mean we don't have disagreements or tell them off from fellow young girls’ boys, but, you know, in the end they're just they're an important part of our lives. 



James Laughlin 40:19 

I'm talking about your case. And I've got a young five-year-old little Finn. And certainly, the day that he came along, my whole perspective of the world changed. So how do you want to be remembered as a dad? 


Sir John Key 40:30 

Yeah, I think someone that they could rely on and was there for them things that really mattered. And that, yeah, like I finally I for me, when Max was playing baseball, and rugby and football least because he was slightly interested in netball, vaguely that was, you know, it wasn't missing sport. But that was who it was other things I used to go to, like, I send my guys that work in I was Prime Minister. So, like, Max's rugby is from 10 to 11. So, take my diary out from 10 to 11. Now, obviously, there's some days you're overseas, or there's days where it's the National Party, annual conference, which case there is no getting out from 10 to 11. But generally, I'd say yet, they want me to open that building, or they want me to go to this thing, or they want me to do something, that's all cool. Let's start from 6am in the morning to 930. Or let's start from 1130 to whatever but when I'm doing from 10 to 11, and sometimes they come in they transit, but this person really wants to see the logo you want that person does, but they're really young Sydney also live in Delhi. And 99.9% time they did. I went to more of Max's rugby games and lots of other parents when Prime Minister.  


James Laughlin 41:42 

Brilliant. You created by this like, chat their clients and my dad saying no, the power of saying no to things, you create environments for the people you love. 




Sir John Key 41:46 

Yeah, while you've got it, you know, because if you want to take, so I think you would hope that they would come back and say, you know, and I said to Max, when we when we were, he must have been about 14 or 15. But it was in the 2014 election. So, it seems like I were just driving along one afternoon, it was like a Sunday afternoon. And we'll suffered damage because they get election campaigns a weird, they're low workload than normal time when you Prime Minister, because everything's geared around six o'clock news. So, you do all this campaign in the morning and make some announcement, you do these things, you shake hands and kiss babies. And then by about three o'clock, it's all over because they got everything they want. And that's the end of it. So, we went off to the driving range, he was going to hit some balls, and I see him during on balance. It's been a good thing. I've been Prime Minister a bad thing. And he said, by 100% I couldn't bring it in. So, you know, I think. So, yeah, I think that's what you want to be remembered. I think you also want to be remembered the more than that, because I mean, look, I we go the lots of things and gazillions of people come up and take photos and do stuff and all that stuff. But yeah, to them I’m their dad. And there is good and bad. they also see probably a side of me that other people don't say, and you know, you know, like any parent, we're going to tell them off or we're going to have bad days or we're going to good days, we have lots of fun and in remember, Max is playing around first. He was really the first was more hands stiff because she was in France that is but there's, I mean, when he stopped playing around social media, because he was, we were really the first family that had that and near because primary was Helen, she didn't have kids then prior to that there wasn't any social media. In America a couple times my office came in and said Max was getting himself in trouble on social media because he posts somebody and appropriately and soldering a lot of guy kind of do realize it would be kind of cool if you didn't do that. And any and he'd say, well look, yep, my Get up. Now I shouldn't have done that one. You know, she'll and but they need sort of say he'd sort of Vinci he would say to me look, you chose to be prime minister. Everyone on my lights is on social media. You really told me I shouldn't be, and I said well, probably not. So yeah, it's just like, you know, you have to sort of roll with the punches. And he is like, you know, New Zealand public are amazingly forgiving in as the media that are much more wound up and in PC and you know, 


James Laughlin 44:21 

the everyday want to get the average, right?  


Sir John Key 44:22 

The average punters are just like their kids and their families and their normal things, and the life isn't any more perfect than your life. That's right. So, they live, they live in the real world. And they just, they like alerts and stuff. They like it when you muck around, and you have fun and it's just the normal certain elements of the media. And so. 



James Laughlin 44:40 

I get it 100%. Makes sense. And I was just thinking, you know, when you were Prime Minister, like what's the greatest sacrifice because it would have been one thing you had to sacrifice that to be the PM. What would that greatest sacrifice have been? 


Sir John Key 44:58 

I mean, this isn't the great sacrifice, but there is no argument financially. I mean, I'd come from had come from Merrill Lynch and, you know, making, you know, a pretty big seven, seven figure salary. To obviously make nothing. It's really, so this in it's that point in your life and from 40 to 55 is probably a big income union period for a lot of people in their lives. So, there was certainly that was, that was a sacrifice. And in that, yeah, I didn't need it. So, it was all fine, like contract. Come on, Matt, I'm just sort of saying, you know, practically you can make that you can make that case. Like, I think the biggest sacrifice you really make is that you can’t be prime minister a bit of the time. You know, it's it really is 365 days of the year. You know, it's, I mean, outside of the whole, the holidays, and even the holidays, ultimately, Im just reading Obama's book at the moment, he just sees that he's talking about he goes home for dinner, which is nice as one minute commute, because by the way, there's right by the water. But he said, you know, that had done and then he goes down to the tricky room. And by the time he went to bed at night, and she was asleep, and so you but you kind of you give up a lot of time. But then I kind of sort of think you know, life's for living and you only get one shot of it and, and that's why I often say to people, so you reckon that lowering the buddy box into the ground, you'll sit there and think I shouldn't have bought then, or I shouldn't have done that, or I shouldn't have had that experience. I mean, I'm going to die honestly, recently, some crash on the back of a Carolina miles now smashes the helicopter into the ground. I'm going to die happy. I really am. Because I'm going to look back and think, shit, I did all the things I wanted to do. I gave it a go, you know, what a life. Yeah, and people shouldn't feel sad, they should feel happy for me that I you know, that I did the things I want to do. I'm not saying that everything right. But I just didn't want to die wondering and I'm not going to. And, and there's lots of different things, you know, and I just kind of think, you know, I was just to say to our caucus, this is what happens in politics, people really, it's actually really hard to become an PM, you wouldn't think of that as much trust me, you got to win the selection, you got to go through all this. And so, you walk over broken calls to get there. So the normal standard procedure is that someone comes to Parliament, they fight like cat and dog to get there. As soon as they get in Parliament. They moan and bitching plan the whole time that and when they leave, they try and come back, I used to go, you are losing the plot. You should fight I cannot to get there. really enjoy it when you're there. And when you leave, never come back. And, like enjoy what you're doing. You know, like, it's really easy to wake up every day and go, this is wrong, or that's wrong or whatever. But is it really? I mean, compared to it's not about being silly. It's not about saying, well, our life is so much better than someone lives in Palestine. Yeah, and there's but you know, that's not the, that's not the reference point where it's like, a lot of people that have life experiences, we get cancer a little bit something, they survive it, they have a completely different perspective on life. But the benchmark of everything can't be our Well, the alternative would be I have terminal cancer and three weeks to live. Because that's not a realistic benchmark. It's like saying, if I if you told me I've got to move again, so got three weeks to live, I probably wouldn't sweat anything either. Other than the fact I've only got three weeks to live, because by definition, nothing else really matters. But that's not the real world, we live in the real world with someone take your parking spot then was mad, or you know, wherever you live, so that's the real world. We love that. But I do think that for the most part, you should try and enjoy it. Because even if you don't, the days it's going to take as long and what's the point, you know, and if you don't really enjoy it, try and find something that you do. 





James Laughlin 49:03 

That’s a beautiful and look at a job. And what gets you out of bed in the morning because obviously as prime minister, you had a major reason for the country to go to bed to go to bed know what fires you? 


Sir John Key 49:12 

Things that are really interested in. So, you know, if it's if it's worth stuff, I actually started when I first came out, I thought I would just do really big market companies. And you know, I was going to be ANZ Group Chairman in in John's gym and a few other bits and pieces. And what really surprised me actually was more that international offers I got which were fantastic and so much better than I ever thought they would be but even really turned out to be there and they continue to be like that. But actually, I've sort of somewhat changed my mind actually now I actually turned down. So, I was never going to be in New Zealand soon. But I actually quite like being around things that there might actually be quite big companies, but they're doing things that are really interesting. And I got to feel like I'm adding value to them. So, there's got to be a reason why I can do something, you know that they that they value. So, I'm not so much interested, if I'm really honest, and you're reading, you know, endless board papers, which just, you know, in correcting the minutes, I find that a bit dull, I'd actually rather go long do something where someone says, you know, I've got something out of it. That was good. And so that that took on a work front. It's those kinds of things where I go away, and I go, yeah, I'll come out a bit of a contribution, I did something where I really enjoyed what I was doing was fascinating. It was interested in this quite a bit stuff in Silicon Valley, because there's so many of these companies are like doing amazing things in a really cool to sort of be around. I mean, you know, part of it is just a different phase in their lives. I think we are you know; Bronagh and I are doing lots, the absence of COVID-19 we do lots of traveling and we catch up on you know, friends and things where we haven't really had time. And that's really why I built the place in Hawaii was had a house here, but we've just got new one.  It's my earlier point, you really think when you know, we're getting lowered into the ground, we'll be thinking Jesus, we really shouldn't have spent all that money building this new house, when else will be with the fly anyway, but infinitely flying the kitchen in from Spain, actually, even worse from Madrid. But yeah, yeah, so I just sort of think, yeah, those cons and having fun really, it's that's a lot of in, in, you know, I still care a lot about national party. So, I still spend a lot of time trying to sort out one or two issues  


James Laughlin 51:33 

Never ending. 


Sir John Key 51:34 

Never ending. And the kids obviously, and yeah, like they're both doing different things. And so, helping them really in you know, we're, we're I came in, in sort of just trying to, yeah, give them yeah, like that, like, even like any parent does something, give them enough right to do the things that matter. But also, you're the source of what when they need it. 





James Laughlin 51:58 

It's beautiful. And it's interesting, when you talk about the dad, because you're the paternal member of the family who did a lot of leadership within the family, and politics, you were leading the country. So, when I've chatted with other leaders, they've talked about sometimes that it's lonely at the top. And they talk about the fact that they can't sometimes share everything. Yeah, but everybody's got a confidentiality. So, through your career, when there were possibly those lonely at the top moments like damn, I can't really tell anybody this. Yeah. Did you have a mentor or a coach, somebody that you looked up to who you could actually let it all out. 


Sir John Key 52:31 

Some things you can't because it's, you know, I just see the classified or as an issue, but I think my chief of staff was Wayne Eagleson, when he was on his, I was used to on the unelected Prime Minister of New Zealand, but he's fantastic guys got a master's in law, he's really brilliant guy, and he'd been around for a long time he needs he really is the voice of sort of reason. So, if he really thought, I got something wrong, he would just come and say you're wrong and say, sorry, we got it wrong. And you got to change tech towards not working, we got to do something different, or equally more of not in almost everything, we agreed there was only actually about two or three times where I thought he was wrong. And I just said, I just don't agree. And I'm going to do it, I'm doing actually on all three of those occasions, I was right, he wanted to do something, which is, and I'm not sure about it, but mostly he would probably, I suppose to be the person. So, the sort of things that you get in that category of like, when a prime minister sends troops to a war, or a war zone, or the sale of guns, or, you know, we see our people to the reconstruction unit in Iraq and those kinds of things, you by definition know that you lose people. So, in Afghanistan, we lost 13 people. And some of them we say some of them weren't. And I remember when I sent them back, we have a little farewell for them. And obviously, it's in a secret location and the real immediate loved ones come on. And these he says, guy like the Ferrari and they want to get out of the garage. Trust me, these guys want to be the, the best in the world. And everyone loves them, the navy seals and they all these countries want them. And they are the elite in the world, and they want to be out here doing things they just don't want to be practicing. , you know, they want to get up and do things. Anyway, we want to send them on we thought it's the right thing to do. And I sort of philosophically believe it's the right thing to do. Because I think what happens with a country like New Zealand is we don't have enough defense forces to protect ourselves. If someone wants to come and invade New Zealand tomorrow, we'll do something really bad to us. They could, right? I mean, they are, and Navy is about three boats. And I've got friends who are on boats in the New Zealand Navy, you know, I mean, my years go on army, the Air Force, it was a bit clicked out planes, you know, we don't match right. So, the reality is we syndicate that so what we do is we gun support all of our friends, you know, the Americans, Australians, the Brits, whatever. in in the in return, we sort of syndicated that risk and so you can't just never tune out when other people need help. And so that's why we would go and train lots of horses with the Americans and things we'd go there against ours. And I went to the sphere well, for the essays when we sit in the in this woman came up to me and her son was going he was really young guy was about 20 to 23 is quite young to be in the seas. And she wasn't really there at all. And then in the 40s, I reckon, and she's came up, she put a finger on it since you bloody well hope you know what you're doing because of my son dies. It's on you, boy. And I said, well, I do think I know what I'm doing. And I certainly hope he doesn't. But you know, it's quite late. And when they did die, they did die. He didn't, but other people did. I used to go and see the families. And that's very lonely, you know, in that. It's not like, it's just you feel that responsibility. But the problem is, the problem is, yeah, you can avoid all of that. But how do you avoid it? When you also need all these people in other countries or be like saying was going to get the neighbors and set them up for dinner, but I'm never bringing anyone I'm never bringing in food for the barbecue. At some point they stopped inviting you. So, you can't you sometimes just have to make tough decisions. And, by definition, lawfully in New Zealand to deploy up military forces, you actually have to get parliamentary resolution in situ, you have to get cabinet has to agree. And then you have to get the legal authority to see run seas by definition the cabinet does. And they're bound by collective responsibility, but it's not true. Prime Minister, no government walks in the and says,  No, we had people in their cabinet, he said, Ireland green, I went, well, that's lovely. They're going so you only the pain can make that decision in slack and lots of different things to do. So, when people say it's lonely, I think it's just more that you have a think you have to have enormous amount of self-confidence. But you there's a difference between confidence, and arrogance, the letter really gets you in trouble. And that's really why over time, I was taught the view, I should retire at some point, if I had the opportunity, and I did it, not because I felt burnt out not because I couldn't have stayed. And I'm actually that in January of the year, I retired in 2016. I said to Bronagh, I'm going to retire at the interview, and she said yeah I don’t believe you.  One thing. And I think if you just worried about you know, that you've been, you know, it's pretty time consuming. She said, I would way rather you just do another tune, and then then go and try and go back. I said, well, don't try this on the shoe, when it would be better to go when they want you to stay than stay when they want you to go in. And I think you know, when you've been to the field days, 10 times, and you've been to APEC eight times? Are you really going to be as energized as that? And I just thought I thought they could reinvent themselves and actually be blunt. They wanted to designate leech, the whole 45%. It's just that Winston hated us and ganged up with just under inverses kind of history, as they say, but in reality the plan actually worked. This was a small flaw in the system. Murphy's Law. Yeah. 



James Laughlin 58:30 

Well, John just to wrap up, I want to say a massive thank you for taking the time to share that it's been amazing. Great. Now one last question is, so what does living life on purpose mean to you? 


Sir John Key 58:39 

Even though from purpose, I think it's ultimately, we are feeling satisfied internally about how things have played out. I mean, that doesn't mean that it's always going to be perfect, or it's always going to be right, or the path you just made is going in the hole or you know, whatever it is that you're doing, but I think you're going to have a reason for doing the things you do. And you know what john, I reckon happens in life or the most people don't take the opportunities they could take, in general, why? That they're not scared of failing themselves, actually, despite what you might think. They're scared of what they think other people will think of them violent. So, they themselves can live with the fact that you know, their art isn't the most amazing the world or they're actually not the best tennis player in the world, but not the soul or not that, but they're scared that other people will think badly of them. 

And that's actually the problem when you're in public life. Everything's public, by definition. So, every mistake you make every decision you make every you know, nuance that you add, is public. But you see, I kind of think, you know, having a purpose is having enough courage to say well, I actually believe in what I'm doing. And I'm going to do that in otherwise you kind of meandering around and your scared of your own shadow. And I've just never wanted to live my life like that I just sort of thought of a view on what I think is right, and I'm going to do it. And we've done lots of things in their lives some good in bad. But they've been decisions that we've made. They've said they're brilliant, they're really deliberate. You know, that is a reason for them. And I don't care whether they're what everybody else thinks, sometimes just defined by the fact that we're public figures. I always say to mix artists doesn't just profitability teasers, can we pass the front page of the newspaper test? You know, like, does it live up to what we say it is. And he's quite tough on his builders, like he'll say, I didn't care whether you could get away with it, you're going to do it like this. And it's going to be right like this. And now I remember years ago, it's a little different story. But if you've got one second visit, we built a house one time in our builder went broke. This is a team that we didn't know that until the very, very anyway, he had failed to pay the guy that did the pool, and another guy, and we didn't even really know that. And one day, there was a knock on the door, in the in the two guys within they said, we never have seen you the witness. His basic issue of being paid, or at least this amount of it. And they said, you don't have to pay us because you've already paid us. But we just letting you know. I said Bronagh, what do you reckon we should do? She What do you think we should do? And I said, pay them again. But it in the end, that didn't really matter to us. Like it just wasn't that much money. It was it was a lot of money. But that was money we could afford it. And Yeah, that No, really, really all worked out? Well, I think it worked out for him, hopefully. But so that's why I sort of think you got to have what you want to do the way you want to be remembered the stuff you, it’s always about being a good person, we're not always good. And we're not always altruistic. We're not, we don't claim to be things that we're not. I'm just saying, it's about having that thing that is a test for you that you've done your best. And sometimes things don't work out, you know, in you sometimes you can do everything you want, and child goes off the rails or I don't know, marriage doesn't work out or whatever, there's a million things. I said, more husbands, and I've done as you know, the other one to one, but you know, it just as well as you know, I mean, everything's different circumstances are different. But yeah, if you said you no, have I lived my life of purpose? Well, I've had a view on what I thought was right and wrong, and the things that I wanted to achieve, and I've done my best to do it. And that's where you really can do. 


James Laughlin 1:02:56 

Thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate that. Thank you. 


I really hope you guys enjoyed that interview as much as I did. It was amazing to sit beside Sir John and hear from him, what he did throughout his life, how he thought about things, how he managed business, how you manage that country, and how he was a dad. That's so amazing. So, if you've taken anything from that, please share it with your friends. And if you want to get in touch to talk to me about leadership, about life coaching, about how I can help you in your life, please do not hesitate. Drop me an email. James at jjlaughlin.com  



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