• Mental toughness is showing up when you don't have to. Doing what you know needs to be done, even when you don't necessarily want to do it. Wake up at 5am and take that cold shower. Get out of bed and go to the gym. Do the hard work.
• Mental Toughness is having unconditional confidence. It is easy to be confident when you're winning and on top. What you need to cultivate is confidence even when you're not winning. Mental toughness should be developed and maintained over the long-term.
• How do you learn a new skill? There are 3 keys ways. Firstly, by watching someone else do it. Get yourself a coach or a role model who is further along in their journey than you are, and learn from them! Secondly, educate yourself. Read about it. Listen to podcasts about it. And thirdly, just jump in the deep end!  If you can combine all 3 of these strategies, you'll be well on your way to learning that new skill.
• Embrace the suck. Embrace the anxiety or stress that you are facing and experiencing. Don't try to avoid the hardships. Rather face them, acknowledge them and then pivot. Think about how you can own the "suck" and then move forward. 

 

Remember, everything rises and falls on leadership.

 

Full Transcription 

SPEAKERS 

Dr. Haley Perlus, James Laughlin 

 

James Laughlin 00:00 

Welcome to lead on purpose. I'm James Laughlin, former seven-time world champion musician, and now an executive coach to global leaders and high performers. In every episode, I bring you an inspiring leader or expert to help you lead your life and business on purpose. Thanks for taking the time to connect today on investing in yourself. Enjoy the show. 

 

James Laughlin 00:39 

Our thoughts impact our emotions, our emotions alter our biology, and our biology increases our performance. Those are the words of Dr. Haley Perlus. She's got a Ph.D. in sports psychology and she works with Olympians and fortune 100 CEOs. Today we're going to dive in and talk about mental toughness. Enjoy the show. 

 

James Laughlin 01:19 

Haley, a massive Welcome to The Lead on Purpose Podcast. 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 01:24 

Thanks, James. I'm so happy that you found me and that you're having me here. 

 

James Laughlin 01:28 

Yeah. So great to connect. We're going to thank our mutual friend, Joe de Sena, for connecting us. 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 01:33 

Yes, yeah. I'm so excited that you guys spoke and that he mentioned me to you. Super exciting and flattering. He's amazing. 

 

James Laughlin 01:41 

Agreed. Absolutely agreed. Well, let's focus on you. We want to talk about mental toughness. For the listener that's listening right now, mental toughness is one of those essential aspects of life just to get through life. We need to develop that. So, where did the mental toughness journey begin for you? 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 01:59 

I was 12 years old. I guess actually, I think I'm fortunate enough to have chosen my career at 12 and I didn't really waver. I'm from Toronto, Canada. And I was a fairly decent alpine ski racer. So, I did a bunch of sports. But then when it really came down to it, I think my best sport was downhill ski racing, more specifically the technical component of slalom. And when I was 12, I was asked to go and compete in the world championships for my age group. So, I went off to Whistler it was in Canada at that time, it's called the whistler cup. And it was a solemn event. And I'm they've number nine. And then number eight was in the starting gate, which gives me about 45 seconds until it was my turn to go and compete. And so, my coach comes up to me and does what we all know coaches typically do. They give you some tips and tricks and they try to psych you up to do your best. Well, my coach decided to psych me out in a different way. He straddled my skis, looked me straight in the face, pulled out a $100 Canadian Bill placed it in front of my nose. And with the most serious look he could he said that he had bet on me to win this, you know, Jr, Jr, Jr. World Championship. He then made sure to tell me that he had bet on a different athlete on my team who was competing in a race the week before a race that I was not in and that he lost, and that he was not prepared to lose today on me. Then unstraddles my skis pointed me in the direction of the starting gate, smiled, and told me to go have fun. So, you know, if you think about mental toughness, right then in there, I'm at a mental fork in the road. On one hand, I could think how could he? How could he bet on me? And then tell me, what if he made what if he's wrong? What if I make a mistake? All these what-ifs and fears and anxieties creeping in. Or on the flip side, I could think, Hey, that's pretty cool. If my coach believes in me so much that he's willing to bet on me. Why shouldn't I believe in myself? I can't tell you that at 12 years old, I had that consciousness? But I do remember thinking, hey, if my coach has high expectations, doesn't that mean I'm doing something right? So, I went down that racecourse I did, when he then came down, shook my hand congratulated me kept the 100 bucks for himself. But he said something that stuck, he said, it's amazing what your performance can be like when you get your head straight. He knew I would thrive under pressure. He had just had a relationship in which I trusted him and he knew that he could push me. Not only that, but then he brought a sports psychologist to come and speak to my ski team two weeks later. And I connected the dots and I went home and I told my parents that I wanted to be a sports site cow when I grew up. 

 

James Laughlin 04:44 

That's phenomenal. That's seriously amazing. Wow. 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 04:49 

Super cool, I think and then you know, and then and then you have your vision and then you have your direction. But interestingly enough, two weeks ago, I was talking with my father who I'm super close to. And he's probably my greatest teacher and coach and life. And he's kind of headed towards retirement now. And I was asking him about his goals, and you know, everything, evaluating his progress. And he said to me, you know, you make goals, and then life happens. And so, and you know, kind of looking towards that I always thought that I only worked with sports athletes. But then as I started my education and started my life, I realized that it wasn't just sport, it was all aspects of performance and competition. So now I work not only in the sports industry, but also in the health and wellness, and obviously, the corporate and business world. 

 

James Laughlin 05:39 

It's incredible. Yeah, I was reading. So, you're working with some Olympians working with Fortune 500 CEOs. So incredible to see that crossover. And I think that's important for the listener to realize that mental toughness is not just for athletes, it's for all of us. 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 05:53 

Yeah, absolutely. I need it now more as an adult in the corporate world as a sports athlete, navigating all of the trials and tribulations and you know, figuring things out. So yeah, I think it's important for everyone. 

 

James Laughlin 06:08 

we talk about, there are two things I want to talk about here. And I would love to see what your thoughts are on the definition between both. So one is, what is mental toughness? What is mental weakness? What is the difference? And we talk about mental well-being or mental health outside of both of those things? But if we think in the sporting in the business world mental toughness versus mental weakness, what do you think are the separators there?  

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 06:34 

That's a really great question. To me, mental toughness is you know, showing up when you don't want to, you know, so it's, you know, the easy piece is to do what you love, and to do what you're good at. But the work is when you, you know, overcoming the struggle, so it's showing up when you don't want to, to me that's, that could be that's a mentally tough person, exerting every ounce of effort you have, even though you may not have 100%, to give that day, even if you're not feeling your best, and you only have 50% Are you giving 100% of that 50. To me, that's mental toughness. And, and really, it's about I think mental toughness is also having what we call unconditional confidence. So it's the confidence that doesn't come and go with the results. It's the confidence that comes with perseverance and determination. To me, that's mental toughness. 

 

James Laughlin 07:27 

Beautiful. And I guess what I hear from that is to be mentally tough, you define your success. It's not what the media thinks it's not what your peers or your competitors think, when you define what success is that that's you, you're on the way to developing mental toughness, as opposed to letting everyone else's views and perceptions define your success. 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 07:51 

Correct. And we don't want to let ourselves off the hook when it comes to reframing our win or redefining what success is. It's not about well, I only achieve this, therefore, I'm going to, you know, deem this as success, that to me, sometimes that's letting yourself off the hook. But in the world in which we live circumstances change, and we often talk about how that's the moment where we have to reframe the when, and what's was what society or media is telling us just may not be realistic intention right now, a goal that can be achieved right now. So, in order to stay mentally tough. Yeah, you have to look inward and see, you know, what, what you're going to deem as success. 

 

James Laughlin 08:35 

And if you think back on your career, do you have another example thereof where you really had to dig deep and find that mental toughness? 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 08:44 

Sure. In my doctorate getting my Ph.D., I almost got kicked out of my program. And I'm a straight-A student, so it wasn't about me not doing the work. But I was doing the work that my advisors didn't want me to do. So, talk about how what other people deemed a success, you know, or, what they wanted me to achieve. So, I was two years into a four-year degree. And I was all about practical work. And then you know, I wanted to teach and I wanted to practice and two years into my four-year degree, my advisor brought me in and told me that I wasn't doing enough research and that I should possibly go and find another program. And it was the first time that she had brought it up. And, you know, I had to I had to really look to see what I was willing to do and what I was not willing to do to be true to myself. So, we found a compromise in the end. But I thought I was on my way I'd already gone through like I had two more years left of a 10-year graduate degree or you know, 10 years of you have I guess, you know, undergrad I guess was four years and then two years masters and then a four-year Ph.D. so I was so close to the end and now I'm being told that I may not get that Dr. In front of my name because I didn't want to play their game, I didn't want to do it their way. So, I had to figure out how to navigate around that. And it took a lot of mental toughness because there was a lot of anger and anxiety. But I did turn that fear into a challenge, I did turn that anxiety into something that was going to help me figure it out and persevere. 

 

James Laughlin 10:18 

I love what you're saying there. When we think of a lot of the leaders, whether it's corporate or team leaders, we have that drive that ambition to be successful, that competitive nature, right? And often, that means we do want to do things differently. We do want to do things our way. But it sounds like you find a compromise. So how do you go about that? So, if the person that's listening right now going, oh, yeah, I'm very much competitive. And sometimes I want to be going against the rules or against the grain. How can you be an individual be driven, and meet those needs, whilst also just compromising enough that you are part of the team? 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 10:55 

And think it's a for me in that particular moment. And again, I had someone to help me work through this because I was learning myself, but I had to really understand what my advisor wanted. What was, you know, I had to understand her side, instead of just being angry at her, and, you know, blaming her because that's not going to help, I really had to understand what her intentions were, what her motives were, what she wanted. And then knowing what I wanted, together, figure out a way to move forward. Instead of me just saying, well, you know, blaming her for becoming a victim that was going to help no one and I was probably actually, I probably would have gotten kicked out. Because then I would have put on my, you know, be a defensive player. But being able to understand her desires, her intentions, her reasonings, then we could work together, which we did. And actually, I think we both got some research out of it, which helped me. I mean, it's not bad to learn how to do research, it's good, even though I didn't like it, I did it. And then I also got to teach, and I got to actually start my consulting practice while doing it. So, I think that's a good lesson. 

 

James Laughlin 12:05 

Huge and empathy is the word that comes to mind, you started to think about life from her perspective and what her needs were. And, you know, I think for anyone listening, that's such a key thing is developing that empathy 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 12:18 

Without compromising your own values. 

 

James Laughlin 12:20 

Right, right. Exactly. And mental toughness. So, is this something that someone can read the book 10-minute toughness, and just read and hypothesize and think about and develop? Or is this a thing to develop mental toughness, you've got to be in the world, and you've got to be facing adversity? 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 12:39 

I think both, you know, how do we develop skills, if I think about how we develop skills, I think about three ways one, is to watch and observe others, so expose ourselves to people that are doing it. And then learn and watch them and role model, or I guess they're really role-playing for use in modeling. But there's something that called that's called vicarious experience from that. So, if we watch others do it, then we think well, they can do it, so can I. So, it's exposing ourselves to people to develop mental toughness skills. Or, sure, we can educate ourselves, we can read, we can learn tools, right? Educate, get yourselves in training, and listen to podcasts like this, where we're learning. Or you can jump right into the deep bench. And, you know, jump, jump right in, you know, climb up that steep hill, you know, race down that trail, you jump, you jump right in, and you will definitely learn along the way through that experience. So sometimes I like all three, I like you know, making sure that I'm exposing myself to people who I admire, and learning from them, definitely educating myself with the specific training and techniques. And then also just jumping right in and seeing what happens. 

 

James Laughlin 13:58 

I love it! The trifecta, that's brilliant. So, a book or a resource, what would you recommend to someone that's listening right now to get on Amazon and order right now? What's a great book for mental toughness? 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 14:09 

So, if I think about why people come to me, one of the main reasons there's a lot of anxiety from the competition right now. So competitive anxiety. I think there's a lot of intimidation with social media. So, for those people who are listening, and those people have children on social media, there's a lot of jealousy, envy, but really, you know, intimidation. And in sports, a lot of people will say that they train really well, but they can't compete because in competition, they have anxiety, and it's usually about focusing on what other people are going to do to beat them. And even in businesses, I'm actually working with an organization right now. In a few weeks' time, I'm delivering a keynote to them and training and they have for the first time they have real competition, and working with them to go through it. So, I think anxiety in a high-performance environment is really key right now. So, there is a concept in performance psychology that is called coopetition cooperative competition. And there's a great book out there called true competition. And it doesn't just focus on competition and focus is on all, you know, performance psychology aspects. But I've been recommending this book quite often, because I think it embraces motivational climate, in advance, it embraces, you know, this concept of, unconditional confidence, and anxiety control. And even though, you know, again, my background in sports, so even though it brings you, you know, it delivers these concepts through sport, I think parents, I think children, I people in the corporate world, people in the athletic world, anyone even though it comes from sports, it can be applied to every life domain because it is the world in which we live right now. 

 

James Laughlin 16:05 

100% Well, I'll be getting a book and I'll make sure to put it in the show notes for anybody that wants to order it. That's fantastic. 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 16:09 

Yeah, so that's my, that's my favorite book right now. I think it allows us to embrace, you probably have heard this term before, embrace the suck. It allows us to you know, embrace the anxiety that we're experiencing and use our best self to go and conquer whatever stress we're experiencing. 

 

James Laughlin 16:28 

It's fantastic. And just before we look at mental weakness on the anxiety side of things, do you have a go-to do you have a breath technique or some kind of mindfulness that you practice when you're experiencing anxiety? 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 16:43 

Yes. And so just to go to sports right now, I have picked up mountain biking in the last year. Oh, by far, this is my most feared sport. By far, and you think because I'm a skier, I can go downhill fast, no problem. No, I am scared out of my mind. And luckily, I have a great coach who is my significant other and so which is often not often the case, when you're, you know, your boyfriend can be your coach too, but it goes. But every time we're about to approach something really fearful or technical or tactical, it's just taking a moment. And literally, it's a brief moment, because this rocker twig or branch or downhill is right in front of me, right? If you just take a moment, literally to take a deep breath, but I'm specifically focused on my stomach. So, when I inhale, it's a belly breath, you know, feel your belly button expand. And then I lighten up something muscular. So, it's for me, because I'm holding on to handlebars, I lighten up my grip, right? And then from there, so I take a deep breath, I lighten up my body somehow. And then I actually zone into something very specific technical or tactical. And for me, it's typically got my butt back. Because it's usually going downhill. So, if we were to put that into a reset, it would be again, take a deep breath, but from my diaphragm from my belly, where you really actually experience your belly button expand, like you feel that belly button, push out and then contract. And then somewhere in your body, there's going to be some muscle tension that is in response to your anxiety. So, if you already know where that is, release it, and then zone into something very technical or very tactical, or something, you know, you do best. And you bring that to whatever meeting you have, or you bring that to whatever, you know, a stressor that you're about to experience. 

 

 

 

James Laughlin 18:39 

Really powerful. I love that you talk about diaphragmatic breathing and the difference between like high chest or lung breathing versus diaphragmatic. Breathing. So, for the people listening, that's so important that we breathe like that, right? 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 18:54 

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Well, if you're breathing, if you're breathing is in your shoulders, and you can see shoulders increase, you know, coming up and down your chest expanding. Breath is really shallow when you bring it down into your diaphragm, and when you focus on that it actually does three things for you, physiologically, it's going to calm you down. So, depending on how long you do it, lower your heart rate, release some muscle tension, change your skin conductance, mentally, because you're really focusing on your diaphragm and your belly, you're practicing a mindfulness technique called centering, your thoughts are literally on your center. So, you're not focused on your past stress your current stress, or your future. You're giving yourself a pattern interrupt. And then emotionally, you're going to experience some common piece, which gives you a whole lot of room to then follow that up with something very technical or tactical, on how you can move forward through that stressor. 

 

James Laughlin 19:46 

Amazing. Thank you for sharing that. That's hopefully the person that's listening right now is going well I'm going to use that today. So that's fantastic. 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 19:54 

Or you can do I'll share a funny story though. So, there's a seven well, he's now eight, an eight-year-old who is near and dear to me. And he's been kind of, he's only known me for about a year. So, he's been kind of watching and asking me what I do. And he plays sports, and he's constantly falling down and getting back up. And he came to me about a month ago or so. And he goes, you know, I think I have something to add to your presentations. And I'm like, what he goes well, so he's he, this is when he was in skiing mode. So now he's doing other sports, but because for the spring when I was in skiing mode, because, you know, when I'm afraid of when I'm on the mountain, I'll just, I just turn around. And then I turn back around more confident, and then I can jump off the cliff. And oh, he said, turn around, takes a deep breath, takes a deep breath, turns back around, and become more confident than jump off the cliff. And I think we are just constantly, go, go, go, go, go. Go. And we don't take a recovery pause. And a recovery pause is really just reset. Something very quick, something very simple. But we all think that we need an hour at the end of the day to recover or an entire evening or weekend or vacation. But I actually think we just need these quick little recovery pauses and these resets, that will help us persevere. 

 

James Laughlin 21:12 

Power is in a pause, right? Now, I like that. Yeah. I love that. Like what you're saying is powerful. So, like, let's say we have a 10-hour day, and we're in the corporate world. Well, like every hour on the hour, if you can just take a 30-second break and just do some of the breathing that you're suggesting. But that's going to make a difference to your psychology, your physiology, right? 

 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 21:36 

Absolutely. And there are people who still will be challenged with every hour on the hour because I will what if a call runs later this. So, I actually have in addition to that, because I do believe we need to move every hour, we need to move our body and get the blood circulating. But sometimes for people, it's actually easier to think, okay, between every phone call, I'm going to stand up and sit down five times, you're basically doing five squats, or you know, between every email, I'm just going to open and close my fists really fast and faster until I feel something or I'm going to do a gratitude exercise. What have I already achieved today? And what do I get to do next? So, these are those recovery pauses. And if you one way is to definitely go according to the clock, you know, every hour to do something, or you just get into the ritual of after every phone call, I'm going to do this or after every email or after every five emails, whatever, whatever works for you. Burnout right now, burnout is, in the last two years, we've done a lot of research on burnout, and the emotional and mental exhaustion, that burnout is, is actually not a result of these high extreme stressors. It's a result of limited recovery from the normal stressors of our lives. 

 

James Laughlin 22:54 

What can we do about that? 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 22:56 

Well, here's the good news. There's only one way to treat or prevent burnout, recovery. There is no other solution, which is a great thing. Because, unlike nutrition, right? Where there are so many different competing philosophies and programs, you know, when it comes to burnout, it's for its recovery, and we can recover in two ways. One is stillness, deep breathing meditation, the brilliance of boredom, just staring out the window for a moment. Or is active recovery. Just take yourself out of one task and put yourself into another as long as that other creates some peace. But when you ask what can we do, James? That's a really great question. Because what we need to do is actually change our mindset about recovery. It's no longer a reward. People think that recovery is something that I will do once I get all these other things done. Right, it's, it's going to be a reward to crossing off my list. Or it's something I get to do when I have the time. Well, if we can go back to sports for just a moment, professional athletes do not recover when they have the time. Nor is it a reward, it is a mandatory component of their performance program. 

 

James Laughlin 24:13 

That's amazing. And the individual listening right now, I want you to think about what Haley has just said and this is how I feel about what you just said, rest and recovery are not a luxury, It's a necessity. 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 24:26 

Absolutely. It's you it's your performance program. It's part of that which then gives you and what is recovery do it renews energy. So, it obviously then gives you the energy to be mentally tough to show up when you don't want to exert every ounce of effort and to persevere with your strengths. You can't do that if you don't have the energy and the only way to create energy is to recover. So, we really have to change our mindset about recovery. It's not a reward. It's not a luxury. It's not you know it is mandatory. And it doesn't take hours, minutes, or seconds. 

 

James Laughlin 25:02 

This is great. And I know that there are a few listeners that are in the hospitality industry in the run chains and restaurants, please, for those that are in the industry, listen to this, because I know that many of your staff are doing 8 to 10-hour shifts and taking a 10-minute coffee or smoke break, please pay them the 30 to 60 minutes and give them their break and their recovery and encourage them to get off their feet every hour. You know, it's so crucial. And I think there are certain industries where we neglect rest, we're like, Nope, this is hospitality. We can't do that. 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 25:37 

Yeah, one of my client's accounts being able to say I regret it. Because it's all a good thing. So, Marriott a is an account of mine, and it's not Marriott spreading the word. It's Marriott, like a chariot. So, I work with them every month, and it's me coming in and delivering resilience training. And they are so on board with what you just said. And that, you know, that's a huge hospitality company. And yes, it is the recovery piece, its life is no longer a marathon, I think we have to dismiss that life is not a marathon, it is a series of sprints. Sprint, recover stress, you recover, Sprint, you recover, stress, you recover. 

 

James Laughlin 26:23 

That's brilliant. And even you think of a Marriott that that's truly a global business. And if you know for the person that's listening, going, oh, yeah, I don't know if I could do that. If they can do it, we can all do it, because they perform at the highest levels. It's one of the greatest hospitality brands, hotel brands, and entertainment brands on the planet. So, I love that. And I guess 40-50 years ago, we and for those that are listening, and not watching this, we didn't have these little bad boys, I just lifted up my iPhone. But often when we're resting and recovering, we just reach for this. And we scroll and we look at messages and we look for reactions and hearts and comments. Truly, that keeps us I believe in a heightened state. I don't think this is true rest and recovery. So, what role does digital technology play in our ability to you know, either burn out or not? 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 27:18 

Yeah, and it specifically is the technology at night. So, we want to break from the work. And so, we turn on our phones and social media. And I'll be honest, I'm not a fan of social media. I think one of my weaknesses is that I'm not a great digital marketer for my own business, because I'm not on social media all that much. But I do think that there is a benefit in that. Sometimes it does provide some joy. And even just some you know, there is a little bit of peace and calm. But you're still getting the stimulus, you're still not being able to choose what you want to watch. Because other people, you know, the advertisements, and you're still getting thrown in all of these things that are not going to cause that recovery. So, in the perfect world, you would get to choose exactly what you get to see and watch and learn on social media. But unfortunately, that's not the case. So that's one hindrance to recovery. Because you're there perhaps to get a distraction away from work and to throw yourself into what your friends are doing and to learn. But you don't have control. You know, there are a couple of settings I'm sure you can take, but then you never know when you're going to get bombarded with things that will actually cause more anxiety. Then there are just the lights like then there's just the light, I mean, the blue light in those phones is the same as the sun. So, if you're trying to physiologically recover, it's really hard to do when you're getting the stimulus that the sun gives us. 

 

James Laughlin 28:57 

You have the blue light blocking glasses, would you recommend those? 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 29:01 

Absolutely. But I don't want to recommend that because I just want to get off your phones. Even better. But if you cannot absolutely you know, there are certain apps that get rid of the blue light or those are those glasses for sure. In the best-case scenario, find another activity to do. So, it's not just focusing on putting the phone down. It's actually that's not the focus the focus is what are you going to do instead of having a replacement behavior. 

 

James Laughlin 29:28 

You get a deck of cards and that's good old school again, have some fun. 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 29:32 

There you go learn some magic tricks. 

 

James Laughlin 29:36 

I love it. Now I'm going to swing back around, we've talked about mental toughness, let's talk about what mental weaknesses are the poor opposite of that and for those people listening, you know if you get triggered thinking about mentally weak, you know, I want you to be open-minded to what that means. And that is that there has to be an opposite to mental toughness, and there's mental weakness, and I know that all of us can experience mental weakness at times. So, for you, what does mental weakness mean? Haley, 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 30:05 

I want to congratulate you because no one's ever asked this question of me, I've never actually had to think about it because everyone's always about mental toughness. So, I'm glad that we've had a little bit of time for me to think about it. And I do love that you've asked that. I think mental weakness is when we let ourselves off the hook. So, I did bring that up a little bit earlier, I think there's a very big difference between giving ourselves some grace and letting ourselves off the hook. And I think letting ourselves off the hook when we know we could do something and we give up too soon. We know it could persevere and we just justify all the reasons why it's okay not to. I think that's a mental weakness. As compared to, okay, the world is what it is, or I'm just recovering from an injury or, you know, my business had a recall. So, we cannot go and actually sell anything right now. We have to reframe the win. To me, that's still mental toughness, that's giving ourselves some grace for what is but letting yourself off the hook and trying to justify all the reasons why it's okay to sleep in again and not exercise why it's so you know why it's okay to stay on your phone for another night. Well, this week is ruined. So, I'll just do whatever I want. And I'll start again on Monday. They're making me do this, I have no control. To me, that's mental weakness. 

 

James Laughlin 31:27 

So good. And we are very good as humans at not seeing our blind spots, not seeing that we're going, ugh it's 5 am, I can't be bothered up. Snooze. And we go back to bed and we get up, we have a coffee and we go to work. And we forget about that action we forgot to take in the morning. What can we do to keep ourselves accountable? Is there a way that we can evaluate ask ourselves a question, and give ourselves a score on a daily basis in terms of those things that matter? The health, the exercise, what can someone do to actually not let themselves off the hook? 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 32:04 

Well, I think the best way is to actually have someone to hold you accountable. So, we talk about accountability right all the time. And I'm sure people who listening or listening, that's not new. But I might be able to dive in a little bit more and help us a little bit further with choosing the right accountability partner. So, there are two things that I want to share when it comes to accountability. First, understand that we can be our greatest allies, but we can also be our worst enemies. So, we need to choose someone who when we're going to be our worst enemies, is going to be our best allies. And that means that you choose someone who's actually going to hold you accountable and not and not be an enabler. So, when you say I wanted to do this, but I wanted to exercise but I wanted to take a recovery break. But they're going to say the truth is, they're going to hold that mirror up when you can hold it up for yourself. Now, often, this is challenging, because you kind of set yourself up to be yelled at, right? You're setting yourself up to be caught. Sometimes your spouse or your significant other your best friend, there can be great, but they also may be awful, they might be more they want to support you but they're enabling is what they're doing. Now, for those of you who have children, children who can speak are often fabulous accountability partners, because they're more than willing to tell you when you screwed up, right? Children can be great, but you really want to choose someone who's not afraid to tell you the truth. And also, not only are they not afraid to tell you the truth, but you're also willing to listen. So, it's a really important relationship that you have to have with this person. You can't just choose someone because they happen to be in your physical proximity. You have to choose someone who's really going to hold you accountable. The other piece is there are different types of accountability partners, depending on who you are as a person, and depending on the challenge that you're trying to achieve, and the intention that you're trying to accomplish. You might choose someone who's a fan and a cheerleader, you might want that for yourself. I know that for me, if I want a fan, if I want a cheerleader, I just call my mom, right like my mom is my ultimate cheerleader. If I want a coach, she's not necessarily the person I'm going to call if I need a strategist, I'm going to ask somebody else. For me, it would be my father or my boyfriend. Those would be the two people that I would strategize with and I really want to listen to their technical and tactical input. Perhaps you need someone who's kind of going to do it with you. So, someone who's going to stand on you know, stand on the field with you. So again, there are different types of this are not just an easy choosing someone. It's really being strategic then and then it gives you the best shot to go about it. 

 

James Laughlin 35:02 

Brilliant. And when you've got this accountability partner, and you've set a goal, and you keep coming up with the butts, and they are but and your accountability partner is doing a great job going, hey, come on, you said you were going to do this, why you're not doing this. But this just keeps happening and happening and happening. So, you're totally incongruent with it, and the partner is calling you out, but you're not, nothing's changing. At that point, what must you do? What could you do? 

 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 35:32 

At that point, in my opinion, you have to change your focus. So, let's just say, I want to exercise after work today, but I'm too tired. Okay, I'm sure. I want to exercise after work today, but I'm too tired. And no matter how much your accountability tells you to come on, it's you know, exercise is good for your health and exercise is gone let you do this and we have a trip coming up, all this stuff is not working, I'm no longer going to be focused on the exercise after work, I'm going to be focusing on what the bud is in the bud is I'm too tired. So now I'm going to set a goal around reframing the too tired after work. So, for example, if after work is 5 pm, I'm going to advise the people that I'm consulting to have this big calendar reminder pop up at 4:45, not 5 pm. But 4:45 saying you are mentally and emotionally exhausted, you are quite physically well rested from sitting down all day. So, I'm really even not focusing on exercise, I'm now focusing on specifically conquering that, but with the reality because most people when I asked what do you been doing all day? Sitting. So, you're quite physically well-rested. So now we're getting into the mental, we're getting into the cognitive reframing. And I'm going to focus on that aspect. And then it's like, do something for five minutes, what are you going to do for five minutes to move your body? Just five minutes. And then I, in my experience, when you start focusing on that but forget about the exercise for a second, but when you start cognitively reframing that, but and then just doing something relatively easy five minutes, what are you going to do? Are you going to, you know, go for a walk outside, are you going to do yoga, or you're just going to, you know, do progressive, muscular relaxation? Just five minutes, what you're doing is changing the way you think, right? You're changing the story. And then eventually, my experience exercise does happen. 

 

James Laughlin 37:35 

Brilliant. I mean, you're being that hyper specificity, you're using that for your subconscious mind going, hey, 4:45 This is gone happen, you've been really specific. I'm well-rested physically. And then you were saying, hey, I'm gone do it for five minutes. And so, there's a specificity there. So, I think to take action when you know exactly what's going to happen. Like, I guess the chance has increased greatly, right? 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 37:57 

Yeah, in my opinion, because right now, so we all have barriers, and those buckets or barriers, and the barriers are preventing us from achieving the goal. So now for temporary just for temporarily, I got to put, I got a shelf, the goal, and now, I got to really conquer the barrier. 

 

James Laughlin 38:17 

Brilliant, and that's simple. Not easy, but it's simple. 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 38:23 

For sure. And then I thought I'm a really big believer in not doing it alone. And why bother? It's so much more fun to do it with people. So have accountability, you know, just have people help you. Why not? 

 

James Laughlin 38:36 

So good. And for a second, I'd love to ask you. Where do mental toughness and mental well-being intersect? Where's that intersect there with you know, mental well-being mental toughness? Because I've read David Goggins. I watched David Goggins. I'm in awe of a lot of the stuff he does, but I think it's very mentally tough. But I know if I was to practice exactly what he does, I do believe that would not be positive long-term for my mental well-being. So, where's the intersect? Where can we be mentally tough and still really, respect and nurture are what mental well-being? 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 39:15 

It's such a great question. When I think of mental toughness, I think it's, that I want to develop mental toughness in pursuit of something. So, David Goggins. I mean, we all want to you know, when I think of him, I just think of someone who has totally cognitively reframed the way he thinks about pain, right? And he focuses on the message and the lessons and the learnings and the embracing and the good things of pain to help him persevere. Mental well-being to me is more about longevity and long-term health. Stability, sustainability, those words pop up, does that make sense? Once Yeah, absolutely. With mental well-being whereas mental toughness I need mental toughness to grow I need mental toughness to challenge myself I need that mental toughness to be resilient. And now I'm not saying that you that mental well-being isn't being resilient to either. But there's just more of this sustainability and, and can eat more of an even flow and the way I visualize it. 

 

James Laughlin 40:26 

That's really powerful. And if you for that person that's listening right now, how could they develop more inner strength to maximize their outer strength? 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 40:36 

So funny on my video, and my website, my welcome video is like we need inner strength to improve our outer strength.  

 

James Laughlin 40:45 

So good. 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 40:48 

Yeah, well, you know, and what was the question again? 

 

James Laughlin 40:52 

How does someone develop more of that, develop more of that inner strength? Because, obviously, you firmly believe that there's a big connection between inner strength and outer strength, that mind-body connection? So how does someone develop more of the inner so that they can experience more of the outer? 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 41:09 

Yeah, so I'm gonna get really specific, just with one tool. 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 41:17 

Every day before you go to sleep at night, ask yourself, what did you achieve today? Every day and be specific and make sure that you're focusing on what you achieved, and not what anyone else achieved. But what did you achieve? And the reason I asked that question is that I think right now, especially with the overload, and the overwhelm, and the simply the I'm not good enough, you know, self-talk, right now. When you ask yourself, what did I achieve? Today, you're focusing on some, you know, to highlight your strength to give you that unshakable confidence instead of going to bed every night saying what I didn't, what didn't I do, what I didn't achieve? And then the next question is, what do I get to do next? What do I get to learn? Who do I get to support? How do I get to be challenged? What do I get to do next? What you're doing is with those two questions, I think you're removing yourself from an emotional state of anger and frustration and worry about what haven't done yet. Or what did I didn't What I didn't get done, or what I'm not good enough for what I did achieve? So now you're you know, you're giving yourself a little bit of a pat on the back. And then what do I get to do next, instead of what I have to do next, powerful, is huge. It brings back your purpose it brings it highlights your strengths, and creates energy from the inside. So that when you go out and you are challenged, and you are supporting someone, and you are learning and you are growing, you now have that inner purpose and energy and confidence to go pursue whatever you are pursuing on the outside. 

 

James Laughlin 43:00 

Please, for the listener that's listening right now just press pause, rewind, like 30 seconds, and just write that down. I'm going to turn that one into a quote and put it up on social media and put your name on it. That was just brilliant. 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 43:12 

Hopes, I'm learning social media. So hopefully, I'll be able to retweet it or at least like it, yeah. 

 

James Laughlin 43:19 

No, that's phenomenal. I'll tell you what you've said a couple of times, you're not good at social media, when you are big if people find you so when you're the best and your field, it doesn't matter. If you've got the best social media, people come and find you. And that's what with you. That's how I found you. People talk about you and what you do. So, you'll get good at social media, that will be something that just happens but you've got a great skill set that people want to know about. 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 43:40 

Well, thank you. And you know, it's interesting, if I'll just use myself as an example if you don't mind. I'll be honest, social media is a big stressor for me, it really, truly is. And everything that I've learned is, you know, and what to do this, and I just, I just really, it's a struggle for me. So, I'm just going to call it a big mental block and a stressor. And you know, when we when we're confronted with big challenges and stressors, there are some people who look at it as I just got to take it one step at a time, right? We break it down one step at a time. And that's great. But what about this technique, which is what I'm doing for myself, and what everyone can do for themselves, think about who you are when you're your best, like, what, who you are, and I think that I am bright. So, I think about like the sun, and what the sun gives the earth is what kind of brightness gives me. I'm curious as opposed to judgmental, and I listen. And when it comes to social media, what I'm doing for myself is every time I create a video, and I posted on the various channels, or send a message out to my distribution list, I tune out my insecurities I tune out my mental weakness of you and I tune out all that and I tune into the fact that I want to be bright with every video I create. I want to be bright with every post that I make. And that is something that I'm working on so that I can share my best self to help other people highlight their strengths. And I think we can do that with any stressor experienced. 

 

James Laughlin 45:05 

Powerful. And I want to go back to that because I actually did want to ask you, what is a mental block? What are you sending a mental block is a stressor. 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 45:14 

To me a mental block is a story that we tell ourselves, doesn't matter if it's real or unreal, it's your story, a story that we tell ourselves that has the potential to debilitate our performance. But I say did I say the potential? Because we're either going to let it run its course or we're going to stop it in its tracks and conquer it? 

 

James Laughlin 45:37 

How do we stop it? So, let's say we've got this mental block, let's say it's someone who's applying for a big promotion, they're wanting to apply for president or CEO. Or they're wanting to be the captain of that amazing sports team. And they've got this mental block around. I don't know, I'm an imposter. I don't think I've got the background experience. So, they've got these kinds of mental stories. How could someone overcome that so that it doesn't stop them? 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 46:05 

When I teach in my consulting practice, or in, you know, my keynotes or training, I have three solutions that I share with people on how to overcome their mental blocks. And I've never come across a mental block, or one of these three doesn't help. So, the first one is to ask yourself, can you change your situation? Is the people you're around or the environment that you're in something, I'll just give a specific example of a person I was consulting with last week, she's obviously because of COVID. She's doing a whole lot of virtual presentations, she used to do more of like boardroom get up in person and speak. And she's experiencing a lot of just mental blocks around the virtual. And we talked about it and she's like, I just don't, I feel very cluttered, I feel very, I don't know that I know that I'm going to say. And when we looked at the situation, when she walks into the boardroom, sure, she may have like a cue card of notes. But she's just really clear when she opens her computer for virtual, her desktop is a mess. So, she opens her computer, and she's just bombarded with all of this clutter. So, changing her situation was really just getting rid of the clutter and cleaning up her desktop. So, she has a clean, you know, environment that she walks into when she gets a virtual presentation. So that's an example of changing your situation. If we're bored at staring at one wall, we've been working facing the same wall, your turn around and you've you know, focus on another wall, changing your situation, it's, I really can't say much more than just looking at who you're with, and the things and around you. But if you can't change your situation to help with your mental block, then it's a little bit of that cognitive reframing and changing the way you look at that situation. So, for example, if someone puts pressure on you, right? You're going out and someone like my coach bet on me too when I was either going to think, oh, no, how could he? Or oh, yeah, it must mean that he really believes in me, and I'm doing something right. So, you know, for everyone out there, who's the captain or going, you know, looking for a promotion becoming an executive? You know, if people are expecting certain things from you, is that a good sign? Isn't that doesn't that mean that you're doing something right? So, we reframe it. And if you can't do that, then you must accept what you're afraid of. You must accept what makes you anxious. And then focus on your bringing your best self towards that stressor. So, there are certain things my insecurities when it comes to social media, there's a reason why I have this mental block. And one of the things is that I accept that people are going to say certain things, they accept that they're going to hear me stumble and mumble and make mistakes, and I accept that. But I'm going to focus on bringing the bright side of social media. That's what I'm going to focus on and bring, and doing the best that I can to highlight to help people highlight their strengths. So, I'm focusing on what I can do to help and that helps me conquer my mental block.  

 

James Laughlin 49:17 

Love it, that's really, really, really powerful. So, when we're thinking about what we're bringing, we're focusing on that you mentioned values right at the start of our conversation. So that brightness and that thinking of the sun and bringing this impacted people, I would love to chat with them a minute about your values two or three of your personal core values just to see where the alignments are there. So, what would you say are your key or core values? 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 49:43 

I have three health, love, and adventure. 

 

James Laughlin 49:48 

So beautiful. I can see the brightness right so that you started with you know, health, love adventure. That's so cool. Where do they come from and how do they let's start with where do they come from? 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 50:00 

and I'm a student. So even though I teach this, one of the greatest things that I get to do is learn every day. And the purpose is something that we're definitely teaching a lot about. Now we're helping people, I don't think we're helping people find their purpose, I think we're helping people bring it to, to the forefront, already have it. And so, when we do the work, we think about, you know, who we are, when we are best, and what values are the most important to us. And in order for me to teach that I have to lead by example, right? And so, I just kind of took inventory of my life, took inventory of my experiences, took inventory of my goals, to get an inventory of what makes me happy, what makes me sad, what makes me feel accomplished, what makes me get down on myself. Absolutely health. If I'm not eating properly, if I'm not sleeping properly if I'm not exercising the way I like it, I get down on myself, I get upset. So that is definitely important. And love I don't have, I have, I am so fortunate that I have some really good friends and a lot and my family super close. And unfortunately, there's been obvious in the last couple of years, there's been a lot of death and suicide and, and I remember having this conversation with someone and I was thinking about it. And for myself, I was like you know what if I, unfortunately, if I were to something were to happen to me right now, there is not one person I care about most that doesn't know how I care about them, or what I think about them. And unfortunately, if anyone in my life were to have an unfortunate incident, they know my feelings toward them. So that was really important. So, love. And then adventurer put me on the water or get me in a mountain any day of the week. Sign me up. 

 

James Laughlin 51:59 

I love it. And it's just what for people that are listening, obviously, you can't see the body language. But I want to say when you said to love that value, you lit up there was a brightness about your energy. So, I can really see that that's, that's really prominent, that's the center, that's the middle one, that that's the center of everything. So, for those that are listening, if you don't know what your values are, please do the work and define what those values are. Now, once you've defined your values, why is it important to have values? No, I think of them as a foundation, obviously, of our life, and they shape beliefs. But for you. So, your values, what did they help you shape? 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 52:36 

I mean, it's my north star, they're my north star, they're my guiding force. When life gets really tough, when things bad happened to me, or the people that I love, it's my values that get me out of bed and help me move, you know, right, left, right, left through life. But I want to address one thing that you just said, you know, you're offering and challenging everyone to find their values, I will tell you already a mental block that might pop up if I can. Yeah, of course. There are so many values, hundreds of values, right? Integrity, friendship, compassion, gratitude, empathy, adventure, there's health, there's so much and I can't think of one value that I don't value. I can't think of one value that I would not want to have. But if we're trying to have everything, we will have nothing. Because it's just too much overload and overwhelms. But when we direct ourselves to have a few, and I like the number three, if we're focused on just having three. So, for me, health, love, and adventure. If I focus on bringing those into my life, I'm probably going to be kind as well. I'm probably going to be empathetic as well, I'm probably going to be genuine and you know, so other things will naturally pop up. But having three gives me direction. And when you have a direction, you pay attention to that. And then you take action. And there's a great, there's a great book if we could just again, it's not new, it's an old book, The Psychology of Persuasion by Robert Cialdini or yes, I actually like the yes, he talks about three is a great number more than three we get confused. So, except for gelato tasting. 

 

James Laughlin 54:23 

35 is a great number for that. 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 54:25 

Man, it's about having the experience of tasting all the flavors and all that stuff. But other than gelato and actually the color of your tennis shoes. Really, if we can narrow it down and really focus on you know, three things. You will not only have those three things in your life, but you will have so much more. 

 

James Laughlin 54:45 

That's brilliant. And I really agree that Robert Cialdini's book is amazing. I'll put a link in the show notes. And it makes me think of this I chatted with David Allen a few weeks ago and he said Jim your brand or your head is for thinking Not for holding is like after four things like three or four things. You're not You're not using your brain, well, you think it's not holding things, just use it for thinking. And when you said three, it made me think of this, I wanted to bring this up. Because I think it's really incredible. These are not my words; these are Dr. Haley's words. They're amazing. Our thoughts, impact our emotions, our emotions, alter our biology, and our biology increases our performance. 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 55:30 

You watch my video. 

 

James Laughlin 55:34 

Yes! It's phenomenal, is all good. So, folks, I want you to listen to them, I'd love for a second if we can just unpack that. So, I'll repeat it again, for those that are listening. So, our thoughts impact our emotions, our emotions, alter our biology, and our biology increases our performance. 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 55:52 

Every thought that we have, create creates, you know, an emotion, whether that emotion is going to be one of like fight or flight survival, anger, frustration, worry, fear, every thought can create that or it will create one of optimum. So, like, Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi's flow state, you know, an emotion of challenge and excitement and passion, or a thought will create peace and harmony and serenity, or create sadness, or, you know, despair. So, every thought definitely has a consequential emotion. Now, I think it goes back and forth then right, because then your emotions subsequently, you know, alter your thoughts. But I'm a strong believer that everything we think will then impact our emotions and your emotions, depending on what you're feeling are directly going to release serotonin and dopamine or norepinephrine, or, you know, muscles, certain muscle tension, skin temperature, and heart rate. And then those bodily responses, your physiological, and your biology, you know, then alter your behavior, which is essentially your performance. And then it goes round and round and round again. So, if we can optimize what I call them, you know, the optimum energy flow, you know, get your thoughts, right, to create, you know, create the good emotions, and then the, you know, have your body respond, and then go and perform your best. So, your mind starts, it's so funny, like, in my profession, I'm a big believer in thinking less, but more strategically. So, when you say, when you set up your mind, and you go through, then you can just kind of shut up your mind and let your body know what does what it lets your body do. Let your body do what it knows to do without you getting in its way. 

 

James Laughlin 57:51 

Yeah, of course. And those thoughts, as you mentioned, the questions that you would ask yourself in the evening, really stimulate positive thought, alright, what do I get to do? What have I achieved? What have I accomplished? So how else can someone obviously, we have some subconscious thoughts that just come in, and they might be negative so we can let those go? But how can we more proactively just start to think in a more empowering way? 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 58:18 

So, I think I remember at the beginning, when I just said, you know, my three best words about myself, right? Curious and listen. Again, I'm so lucky that I get to teach this every day. So, I get to learn it every day. But I would recommend everyone take the three words that describe them at their best, and there's no right or wrong. And remember, just because you're not having happy on the list, for example, I don't have happy on my list. But if I'm bright, curious, and I'm listening, I'm going to be happy. So, it's not like you're just missing all the other words, I'm just giving myself something to focus on direction, and attention. Put those three words on your bathroom mirror. When you're brushing your teeth, staring at yourself each and every morning, and each and every night, you're reminded of your three best words, have a calendar reminder, and let them pop up so you can start taking inventory of them. So, it sets you up for success. In addition to that, we're not perfect. So as soon as you catch yourself losing your best self, it's not about saying I don't have time to take care of myself right now. I've got other deliverables I got I have other tasks; I have other responsibilities. I just got to go, go, go, go, go. That's not the best method. Soon as you catch yourself losing one of those three words. That is your moment to take that recovery pause. But be strategic about it. If I lose my brightness, as a recovery pause for me maybe to go outside and stand in the sun. If I'm judgmental perhaps the recovery pause for me is to ask myself, that person who was rude to me I'm wondering what unfortunate circumstances they went through today. So, you want to be strategic and do something in that recovery process to bring back that word. So, it's really, again, very strategic when we're working with these three words, that I believe it'll help us, you know, be mentally well. 

 

James Laughlin 1:00:15 

Really, I believe that too. And I love what you're saying don't just have your words, have your actions that you take from those words that help you get back into that desired state. That's just brilliant. So, for somebody that wants to the person that's listening right now, they're like, whoa, I want to know more about Dr. Haley, how can they get in touch? How can they work with you? 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 1:00:33 

Well, we know it's not going to be social media. The best place is my website. And from there, you can just opt-in, and then even contact and I see every email that comes in through the contact page. So, www.drhaleyperlus.com. Is that my website of the social media for everyone? And you know, more than the business? Well, I do. I am on LinkedIn more than anything else. So definitely connect with me on LinkedIn, and send me a message. I just want to help and support and help everyone highlight their strengths to be the champions of their own lives. So, I am I so hope to hear from you. 

 

James Laughlin 1:01:16 

It's fantastic. Well, I'll make sure to put that in the show notes. I'll put your LinkedIn URL and also put your website so people can just click through and check it out. That's great. James, I've got one last question before we wrap up. And I always like to ask this right at the end. So, we fast forward many, many, many years, and it's your last day on earth. And someone near and dear, they're maybe 40 or 50 years younger than you they come to you to say, Haley, what's your advice to me? I want to live my life with purpose. How do I go about it? What would your advice be to them? 

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 1:01:54 

I'm going to laugh at this question because I'm going to say it but I'm somewhat hypocritical. Not like, like general but just in my favorite sport right now. Eyes wide open is what would be my it would be my advice. So, what do I mean by that? I love people with vision. If someone comes to me, and they have a specific goal for their life, of course, I'm like, let's do that. But I don't want people to close off any opportunities that may they may not even realize they're going to happen, but then do if that makes any sense. We don't know what we don't know. So, I love everyone having goals and direction. I wanted to be just sports psychology, I wanted to just focus on sports. But then I was fortunate enough to have an opportunity in the corporate world, in the health and fitness world, and if I just focused on my one goal of sports, I would have neglected such a valuable part of my life, I wouldn't have been able to live certain experiences. And for me in the future, I'm still young, I'm still going for it. So, eyes wide open. And I say that because I say that I'm hypocritical because my favorite sport is mountain biking right now. I'm constantly being told to keep my eyes open because when I get scared, I close my eyes. So one thing that I'm learning for myself and my sport but one thing that I feel like I actually have has lived by in my life and will continue keeping my eyes open to life's opportunities. And it's kind of like my dad just said to me set goals and then life happens. Have your eyes wide open for life. 

 

James Laughlin 1:03:33 

Folks, you heard it here first, keep your eyes wide open. I love that. Thank you so much, Dr. Haley.  

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 1:03:40 

You're very welcome, James. I didn't even get to ask you any questions which I wanted to but you were just diving right in and it was super fun. I appreciate your time. 

 

James Laughlin 1:03:49 

Thank you so much, and I wish you nothing but the best  

 

Dr. Haley Perlus 

You too. 

 

James Laughlin 1:04:11 

Thanks for tuning in today and investing in your own personal leadership. Please hit that subscribe button. And I'd love it if you'd leave me a rating and review. I've got some amazing guests lined up for you in the coming weeks. And leaders. It's that time to get out there and lead your life on purpose.